Highlights from Amsterdam's interview with Tucker Carlson
In the interview, the UOC's lawyer shared many facts about the persecution of the UOC, the creation of the OCU, and other related topics. The very fact of the interview speaks volumes.
On February 19, 2025, popular American journalist Tucker Carlson, who is part of the close circle of U.S. President Donald Trump, published an interview on his YouTube channel with the international lawyer of the UOC, Robert Amsterdam.
R. Amsterdam is a well-known human rights defender who has been providing legal defense for the UOC for several years, trying to bring the truth about the persecution of believers in Ukraine to the international community. Not long ago, his voice was almost the only one defending the UOC. Leaders of foreign countries and most officials of international organizations preferred to turn a blind eye to the violation of religious freedom in Ukraine. But times are changing, personnel in corridors of power are changing, and political priorities are shifting. And the truth, sooner or later, comes to light. "For nothing is hidden that will not be revealed, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light" (Luke 8:17).
A shot in the foot or the head?
Zelensky started the campaign of persecution against the UOC at the end of 2022. Before this time, the authorities had not declared a course to destroy the Church, fearing a division in society during the war. Although, of course, support for the OCU and the oppression of the UOC had not disappeared since the presidency of Petro Poroshenko. Both the Verkhovna Rada and the President's Office voiced calls for national unity in the face of the enemy and the inadmissibility of actions that could undermine this unity. It should be clear to all rational people, especially politicians, that the most volatile area of social relations is religion. Neither the economy, nor social policy, nor culture can tear society apart from within as much as religion can. If you want to divide society, strike at the Church. Why did Zelensky do this? Why did he take this step? Under what influence? Perhaps, we will learn the answers to these questions over time, though likely not too much time.
However, the absurdity of trying to destroy the country's largest religious denomination during active military operations is already evident. Let’s quote Belarusian human rights activist, theologian, and religious scholar Natalia Vasilevich. Sharing her impressions about Robert Amsterdam’s interview with Tucker Carlson, she wrote on her Telegram channel: "Unfortunately, everything is going according to the worst-case scenario of all the ones I have feared before. The strategically short-sighted policy of the Ukrainian authorities regarding the UOC, who had every chance to make the UOC an ally instead of turning them into antagonists, has led to the fact that a huge amount of effort is being invested on the international stage in trying to convince others that there is no persecution, that they misunderstood everything, and despite all efforts, attempts to convey this information look pathetic and unconvincing. <...> Russia and pro-Russian forces take advantage of this. Those Orthodox who do not recognize the OCU are using it. And in the end, no even illusory benefits were gained, only problems were created. <...> And I still don’t understand why they shot themselves in the foot."
Couldn't agree more, with the only correction: it seems it was not a shot in the foot, but a shot in the head.
And the issue here is not only the division of society and the provocation of internal political strife during the war. The Holy Scriptures say: "Do not touch My anointed ones; do My prophets no harm" (Psalm 105:15). These Old Testament words are fully applicable to the New Testament Church of Christ. One cannot destroy the Church with impunity and think that Heaven will look upon it indifferently. "And will not God bring about justice for His chosen ones, who cry out to Him day and night? Will He keep putting them off? I tell you He will see that they get justice, and quickly." (Luke 18:7-8).
The article "UOC Ban and the War with Russia: Prophets on the Causes of Military Defeats" clearly shows how the start of the persecution against the UOC coincided exactly with the cessation of successes by the Ukrainian Armed Forces at the front, followed by only failures, retreats of our troops, and significant losses. Zelensky's decision to start the campaign to destroy the UOC set in motion spiritual laws that are beyond the control of any earthly authorities. These laws stand above all other rules and patterns: military, political, economic, and so on. Atheists believe that there is no God and that everything happens by chance. They believe that there is no causal connection between the persecution of the UOC and the dire situation that has developed in Ukraine, as in other similar cases. But history has repeatedly disproved this view.
It is unknown how everything will end for our country. It is unclear how the conflict with Donald Trump will end personally for Zelensky. However, it is highly likely that, had he known how things would turn out, he would have thought a hundred times before touching the Church.
Lies and truth
Let's pay attention to N. Vasilevich’s words about how the Ukrainian authorities had to put in "a huge amount of effort on the international stage" to create a false image of no human rights violations in Ukraine. The entire PR campaign that accompanied the persecution was built on lies. And, for a while, it was quite successful. Western politicians and media pretended to believe these lies and spread them to their audiences. Here's what R. Amsterdam says: "The dishonesty of some of the people that are reporting from Ukraine is astounding. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve been involved with cases involving wars and disputes, but the absolute lying and the games that our papers are playing..."
As the interview continues, the lawyer recounts how politicians and journalists refused to meet with him, how he was literally insulted when he spoke about the real situation in Ukraine. The only senator from the entire U.S. Congress who agreed to meet with him and discuss violations of the right to freedom of religion was J.D. Vance, the current Vice President of the U.S. And now, in the American political arena, more and more people are starting to talk about the persecution of the UOC. The attempts by Ukrainian authorities to justify the repression against the UOC believers are proving to be ineffective. And the authorities specifically sent officials and members of the Verkhovna Rada to the U.S. to deceive their partners. The authorities hired PR specialists and lobbyists to promote their false narratives, paying them millions of dollars.
R. Amsterdam: "The Ukrainians gave a $3.6 million contract to a PR firm in Washington to go after my Church and me. So, I’ve had vicious letters written about me…."
But the truth cannot be hidden. Let's recall the specific false narratives that the Ukrainian authorities promoted both within the country and on the international stage:
- the UOC justifies aggression and promotes the ideology of the "Russian World";
- the UOC is part of the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) and follows decisions from Moscow;
- the number of UOC supporters is very small, almost all of Ukrainian society is against it, and the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians support the OCU;
- the Ukrainian authorities do not ban the UOC, they simply prevent the influence of the ROC in Ukraine;
- there are no violent seizures of UOC churches, and all transitions to the OCU happen voluntarily at the decision of the believers;
- all conflicts around churches involving violence are provoked by "Kremlin agents".
We will not provide evidence here that all these narratives are untrue. This is quite obvious. But what is important now is that at a high international level, the truth about what is happening in Ukraine is starting to be spoken. Here are some quotes from Robert Amsterdam's interview:
"Our parishioners go to the front, while their churches are being stolen back home, while parishioners, elderly parishioners and priests are being beaten."
"You know, there’s a law, 3894, to destroy the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. No law has been passed like this in Europe since World War II against the Jews."
"Well, let’s be clear. It’s the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. We are not part of the ROC. We are, we share only a canonical link. Our Church (the UOC – Ed.) denounced the invasion. Our church separated itself administratively 30 years ago."
"... this other Church (the OCU – Ed.), which, by the way, has stolen 1,500 of our churches, engaged in mobilizing. <...> Yes. Stolen them. Outright stolen them. And worse, beaten our priests, beaten our parishioners. And I have this all on video. If you go to savetheuoc.com, you will see the videos of our parishioners being beaten. These are the elderly parents of people at the front fighting for the liberation and protection of Ukraine, being beaten very often by SBU, that's their secret police, wearing death masks with Nazi insignias on their arm."
"I went to church after church. Our churches were full. Our priests were like rush hour traffic on a Sunday. I mean, we’re having multiple services because there are now so few churches because the other church is stealing them. So when you go to the other church, they’re virtually empty. In fact, many of the churches they’ve stolen, they’ve turned into museums."
"You can fool some of the people all the time and all the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time," said Abraham Lincoln. The time when lies about the UOC could be successfully spread has already passed. The time for the truth is coming. It is astonishing how the authorities in Ukraine seriously believed they could create chaos against millions of their citizens and thought it would go unnoticed.
Whose project is the OCU?
Another lie that has been fed to us both inside and outside Ukraine for the past seven years is the claim that the OCU emerged in Ukraine naturally, just like local Churches in other countries. Now we see how the new U.S. administration acknowledges that this was a political project, with the key role in its creation played by the U.S. administration. Robert Amsterdam even called it a CIA operation.
Supporters of the OCU often point out that their church was created in 2018 during Donald Trump’s first presidency. This is true. But the fact is that Trump's first presidency took place under significant influence from the Democratic Party on U.S. policy. The so-called deep state largely imposed its agenda on Trump and restricted him, preventing him from carrying out his own policies. The main work in the creation of the OCU was done by U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. He negotiated with the Phanar, provided full support to Serhiy (Epifaniy) Dumenko, and put significant pressure on representatives of the Greek Local Churches, forcing them to recognize the OCU.
In response to Tucker Carlson's question: "Do you know who at the State Department worked on this op to create a fake church?" Robert Amsterdam said: "Yes, yes. It dates back to 2014. We believe it began with Victoria Nuland, who, I mean, this was a big operation because she worked with the ambassador of the United States to Ukraine. Amazingly, becomes the ambassador of the United States to Greece. And it is in fact the Patriarch of the Constantinople Church that becomes the one who engineers the basically the destruction of our church by taking canonical control away from Moscow and taking it to himself, violating a treaty from the 17th century. So, we have the United States, and by the way, this was engineered by Secretary of State Pompeo. So, this isn’t just a Democrat thing. Secretary of State Pompeo was directly involved."
But after the U.S. presidential elections, Mike Pompeo was publicly and demonstratively kicked off Trump's team. This was followed by the exposure of the U.S.'s role in creating the OCU. Here are a few more statements from Robert Amsterdam on this matter:
"Five years ago, a new church was established in Ukraine by the Poroshenko administration with the active connivance of the United States government. The State Department of the United States was involved in the establishment of the church. I believe either USAID or some other organizations have funded this state church called the OCU. This is a basically kind of a CIA operation, if you will, to set up a church that would be completely free of what they viewed as the dangerous Putin influence. So, you have our State Department violating our constitution openly, engaging in the destruction of religious freedom in a foreign country, doing things absolutely illegal under our constitution."
"We’ve studied it. We’ve met with people who were at high levels of the U.S. government, who confirmed for me that this was a U.S. government operation."
It is interesting to consider how the representatives of the Greek, Cypriot, and Alexandrian Churches, which recognized the OCU, feel after such revelations and admissions. Not only did they conduct joint services with individuals who had no canonical ordinations, but now it is revealed that the OCU is a "CIA operation". And this is acknowledged by the Americans themselves. It is safe to say that the prospects for the OCU's recognition by other Local Churches are becoming increasingly uncertain.
Conclusions
Both the content of Robert Amsterdam’s interview with Tucker Carlson and the very fact that it was published indicate that the time when OCU lobbyists could successfully deceive Western politicians and journalists with stories about how everything is fine with freedom of religion in Ukraine is coming to an end. The truth about the persecution of the UOC can no longer be hidden. We can expect that the number of statements about the real situation will continue to increase, and the level of politicians making these statements will only rise. For example, the day after the interview, Congresswoman Victoria Spartz spoke out about Zelensky’s persecution of the Church. It is not unlikely that we will soon see the fulfillment of Robert Amsterdam's warnings, that the members of the Ukrainian parliament who voted for the law banning the UOC may face sanctions from the U.S. government.
The revelations about how the OCU was actually created and in whose interests it was created is a powerful blow to the OCU's image. This blow will certainly not destroy the OCU, but it will significantly affect how it is viewed globally, particularly in the Local Orthodox Churches.
In recent days, harsh criticism has been directed at Zelensky from the U.S. The American President called him a "dictator without elections". Interestingly, he made these remarks shortly after Tucker Carlson's similar comments, who argued that Zelensky's "dictatorship" was partly due to his persecution of the UOC. It is possible that these words will be followed by legally formalized accusations with more serious consequences. And Zelensky's attempt to ban the UOC and deny millions of Ukrainian citizens their right to religious freedom could very well become one of those accusations. All the evidence is clear.
