"I do not feel forsaken by God"

Our conversation with Metropolitan Pavel, the Lavra abbot, took place even before the last trial took place and he was thrown behind bars in the pre-trial detention centre. We present to your attention the hierarch's testimony about the pressure from the authorities, attempts to persuade him to defect to the OCU, his attitude towards Bartholomew and Epifaniy, and how he feels about the attempts by the authorities to take away the Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra.

"There will be no recognition of the OCU? Then, there will be a criminal case."

– You mentioned the government's offers regarding recognition of the OCU in exchange for your freedom. Can you describe how it happened?

– I don't know the people who talked to me about this; I don't remember their names. I can only say that they were very unpleasant individuals. The museum director called me and said that they wanted to talk to me. Their first words were: "You speak incorrectly or unfavourably about Patriarch Bartholomew."

Well, is Patriarch Bartholomew anyone special? He is no different from Patriarch Kirill, Patriarch Theophilos, or others. The only difference is that Bartholomew is a non-believer.

He (the interlocutor of the Lavra abbot – Ed.) told me, "You must recognize the OCU." I replied that such a conversation is out of the question. Then they offered me some compromise. What kind of compromise could that be? Probably with my conscience to renounce God. I told them that would not happen either. Then the person sitting next to Rudnyk said to me, "In that case, a criminal case will be brought against you." A very unpleasant man. I replied, "Please, do you want to shoot me? Once again, I say that there will be no compromise. The brethren will not leave Lavra, and there can be no recognition of the PCU". To which they repeated to me again: "Then there will be a criminal case."

Two days passed. I was invited to the SBU in Pechersk (a district in the centre of Kyiv – Ed.). I went there, they met me and took me to a certain floor. There, the head of the SBU for Kyiv and the Kyiv region and two other people who had questioned me at the museum asked me the same questions. The only difference was that here they were more lenient. I reiterated to them that there could be no compromise with the Church and the state, that I am a citizen of my country, and I follow the law, but I cannot betray Christ; it will not happen. I also told them that all their accusations, claiming that I am against the President, against the government, are untrue.

"Unite with the OCU? Why not with the Green Party then?"

– They probably don't understand why you specifically don't want to unite with the OCU.

– Unite with whom? With a political party? Well, in that case, we can unite with Yulia Tymoshenko or the Green Party, or whatever they call themselves. And Dumenko... He undeservedly put on the bishop’s clothes, being not ordained. I advise him to read about Theophilus, a fool for Christ. The governor of Poltava laughed when Theophilus, the insane, put on all sorts of trinkets, and he decided to laugh, just like they are laughing at all of us today. So, there's no one to unite with.

As for the authorities... We have nothing to put up with them. What wrong have we done to them? They do to us, but not the first face, I think, but others. Why should I put up with them when I haven’t quarrelled with them?

The Constitution guarantees my freedom, but no one pays attention to the Constitution. The courts are intimidated. I see how they come to court. The session's not over yet but the prosecutor, Yevheniy, is already reading the ruling. I saw it, and the people who were sitting in the courtroom saw it too. So, there is no freedom, no equality, no respect for a person; there's only violence. Nobody hears; the judges don't hear because they are told not to. I reminded the prosecutor of how he once came to me and spoke differently back then. But today, he won't even raise his eyes in court.

– It seems that the Ministry of Culture does not plan to back down. Should we prepare for the authorities to forcefully take over the Lavra?

– It is already happening today. They sent policemen, they started cutting locks, putting their own seals, like at the tomb of Christ. They can't do anything, even if they kill us, throw us out or force us out. But all this is temporary. The situation in the Lavra today is beyond human understanding. These are even more terrible than the Soviet authorities.

– In early March, there was a lot of talk in the Ministry of Culture about the Lavra becoming part of the OCU, that it will become a "Ukrainian sanctuary," and so on. Now, such talks are hardly heard. Does this mean that the authorities have lost hope that someone else from the brethren, apart from Lotysh, will become a traitor?

– Lotysh walked around the monastery, offering the monks positions in the Lavra. Some were offered the post of vestryman, some the post of treasurer. But he found himself alone. He is a miserable person. His father led a saintly life, but the son is entirely different.

Look at how Avraamiy addresses now: "My people of Ukraine." The President and the Primate of the Church can address the people of Ukraine. But who are you?

"Today, they will do away with us, and tomorrow, they will go after others."

– The Lavra is a magnificent complex in the heart of the capital. Don't you think that the saga of expelling the monastery, all this pompous-patriotic rhetoric, could be to some extent just a business project to put offices and firms in the buildings?

– I believe that those who strive for power over the Lower Lavra will indeed do that. At some point in the past, there were people who tried to set up businesses here, like trade pavilions. But I put an end to it and didn't allow it.

– Was it already during the current government?

– Yes, but I don't think the President knows for sure. Who would tell him about it? They didn't come to me; they went to the museum director and tried to persuade him.

– Under your leadership, the Lavra has risen from ruins to become a magnificent monastery. How do you feel about the actions of the neo-Bolsheviks now?

– I have always considered myself unworthy, and I still do. Yes, I received the grace from God to be in this position. In 1985, I told one of my friends, "I wish to live long enough to see the day when the Dormition Cathedral is built. I would not only kiss the hand of the abbot but also his foot." Exactly nine years later, I received a decree stating, "Archimandrite Pavel (Lebed) is appointed as the acting head of the Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra."

It was an honour for me to build the Dormition Cathedral. They say that the government built it... They didn't build anything. They provided money but immediately embezzled it. My friends donated money for restoration. We had a servant of God, Roman, who donated 1 million dollars for the restoration. Other friends of mine paid for the interior frescoes. What the authorities say about their own contributions... It's a lie.

You know, I don't feel forsaken by God. The Lord does not abandon me. But I have a very heavy heart when they destroy what you have built. They didn't build anything; they only stole. And today it is very difficult when they destroy your shrine, your country's history. After all, everything, including our statehood, was born in the Lavra.

It's better to die than to witness this filth and neglect. The people have become spiritually dead, as our graduate St Mitrophan of Astrakhan writes.

Today, they (the authorities) will do away with us, and tomorrow, they will go after others, except the Jews; they are afraid of them, naturally. They will start persecuting Protestants. Epifaniy is of no use to them. They use him, like Avraamiy, to do their dirty work and then discard him. What is next?